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	<title>Comments for When This Is, That Is</title>
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	<description>A householder's thoughts along the Middle Way</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 30 Apr 2012 21:39:24 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Investigating Rebirth by Paul</title>
		<link>http://paulgerhards.com/blog_thisisthatis/2012/01/06/investigating-rebirth/comment-page-1/#comment-1745</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Apr 2012 21:39:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paulgerhards.com/blog_thisisthatis/?p=2964#comment-1745</guid>
		<description>Hello Daniel,

Yes, you&#039;re right, I have an analytical way of looking at things. I&#039;m glad you stumbled in, but I&#039;m curious now how you happened to find me. I don&#039;t post here too much anymore, rather I spend more time with my main blog, which is more secular in nature. Thanks for pausing long enough to comment. I appreciate it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Daniel,</p>
<p>Yes, you&#8217;re right, I have an analytical way of looking at things. I&#8217;m glad you stumbled in, but I&#8217;m curious now how you happened to find me. I don&#8217;t post here too much anymore, rather I spend more time with my main blog, which is more secular in nature. Thanks for pausing long enough to comment. I appreciate it.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Investigating Rebirth by Paul</title>
		<link>http://paulgerhards.com/blog_thisisthatis/2012/01/06/investigating-rebirth/comment-page-1/#comment-1744</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Apr 2012 21:33:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paulgerhards.com/blog_thisisthatis/?p=2964#comment-1744</guid>
		<description>Hi Star,

To begin, yes, you are right, mine is a Theravada perspective, which is what I&#039;m most familiar with. And this isn&#039;t the first time I&#039;ve been called out for using absolutes like &quot;always.&quot; I should know better, because always and never are synonyms for sometimes. Anyway, what I intended to express in this essay was how I saw rebirth differently after reading TB&#039;s book. What struck me is the idea that the teachings on rebirth is a strategy for explaining how karma works. That makes sense to me. However, I neither accept rebirth as an article of faith that must be believed in order to be a good Buddhist, nor do I reject it as an archaic bit of mythology that must be abandoned in light of scientific knowledge. What I do accept is that actions matter and every action has a result—or string of results—even if we don&#039;t recognize it for what it is. I can also easily accept that a &quot;generalized rule of behavior that has some exceptions is every bit as useful to work with, over the course of a lifetime, as one that works every time...&quot;

Incidentally, I too have a great appreciation for Stephen Bachelor and the work he&#039;s done with putting contemporary Buddhism in a historical context and separating what the Buddha actually taught from what was generally accepted as true during his day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Star,</p>
<p>To begin, yes, you are right, mine is a Theravada perspective, which is what I&#8217;m most familiar with. And this isn&#8217;t the first time I&#8217;ve been called out for using absolutes like &#8220;always.&#8221; I should know better, because always and never are synonyms for sometimes. Anyway, what I intended to express in this essay was how I saw rebirth differently after reading TB&#8217;s book. What struck me is the idea that the teachings on rebirth is a strategy for explaining how karma works. That makes sense to me. However, I neither accept rebirth as an article of faith that must be believed in order to be a good Buddhist, nor do I reject it as an archaic bit of mythology that must be abandoned in light of scientific knowledge. What I do accept is that actions matter and every action has a result—or string of results—even if we don&#8217;t recognize it for what it is. I can also easily accept that a &#8220;generalized rule of behavior that has some exceptions is every bit as useful to work with, over the course of a lifetime, as one that works every time&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Incidentally, I too have a great appreciation for Stephen Bachelor and the work he&#8217;s done with putting contemporary Buddhism in a historical context and separating what the Buddha actually taught from what was generally accepted as true during his day.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Investigating Rebirth by Daniel Silberberg</title>
		<link>http://paulgerhards.com/blog_thisisthatis/2012/01/06/investigating-rebirth/comment-page-1/#comment-1743</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Silberberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Apr 2012 18:47:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paulgerhards.com/blog_thisisthatis/?p=2964#comment-1743</guid>
		<description>Hi Paul,

I came across your blog accidentally. No I don&#039;t think the world is telling me anything:) Well sometimes it tells me to buy stuff.

I really liked your post on reincarnation, thank you.
What I was taught about that by a Zen teacher (Maezumi Roshi) was that to not know was a good answer as well. I am scientifically oriented as I believe you are. I thought you might like to hear that . Again thank you you fine post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Paul,</p>
<p>I came across your blog accidentally. No I don&#8217;t think the world is telling me anything:) Well sometimes it tells me to buy stuff.</p>
<p>I really liked your post on reincarnation, thank you.<br />
What I was taught about that by a Zen teacher (Maezumi Roshi) was that to not know was a good answer as well. I am scientifically oriented as I believe you are. I thought you might like to hear that . Again thank you you fine post.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Investigating Rebirth by star</title>
		<link>http://paulgerhards.com/blog_thisisthatis/2012/01/06/investigating-rebirth/comment-page-1/#comment-1736</link>
		<dc:creator>star</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Apr 2012 03:43:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paulgerhards.com/blog_thisisthatis/?p=2964#comment-1736</guid>
		<description>You said, &quot;And bad actions will always bring bad results. Eventually. You can see the necessity of an ongoing process. Without it, the teaching of karma becomes irrelevant. If the teaching of karma is irrelevant, then all of the Buddha’s teachings are.&quot;  This is how the Theravada interprets karma, but I believe it is a misunderstanding of what the Buddha actually says. And even laying &quot;what the Buddha says about it aside&quot;, I disagree with the implication that unless every bad act brings bad results (and every good, good) then karma becomes irrelevant, and the Buddha&#039;s teaching irrelevant. If what the Buddha observed and taught is that *in general* and *over the course of time* it averages out that bad begets bad, and good, good, that is just as significant as if it were true in every case.  A generalized rule of behavior that has some exceptions is every bit as useful to work with, over the course of a lifetime, as one that works every time -- but whose effects are not obvious to us &quot;every time&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You said, &#8220;And bad actions will always bring bad results. Eventually. You can see the necessity of an ongoing process. Without it, the teaching of karma becomes irrelevant. If the teaching of karma is irrelevant, then all of the Buddha’s teachings are.&#8221;  This is how the Theravada interprets karma, but I believe it is a misunderstanding of what the Buddha actually says. And even laying &#8220;what the Buddha says about it aside&#8221;, I disagree with the implication that unless every bad act brings bad results (and every good, good) then karma becomes irrelevant, and the Buddha&#8217;s teaching irrelevant. If what the Buddha observed and taught is that *in general* and *over the course of time* it averages out that bad begets bad, and good, good, that is just as significant as if it were true in every case.  A generalized rule of behavior that has some exceptions is every bit as useful to work with, over the course of a lifetime, as one that works every time &#8212; but whose effects are not obvious to us &#8220;every time&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Investigating Rebirth by Paul</title>
		<link>http://paulgerhards.com/blog_thisisthatis/2012/01/06/investigating-rebirth/comment-page-1/#comment-1735</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Apr 2012 16:22:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paulgerhards.com/blog_thisisthatis/?p=2964#comment-1735</guid>
		<description>Hello Simon. It seems what your saying here is that a person needs to choose between self-interest and other-interest when making ethical decisions. It reminds me of the basis for Mahayana. The Buddha taught people how to awaken for their own sake, which in turn was beneficial to the many. The Mahayana saw the emphasis on individual awakening as selfish so directed their teaching toward the awakening of all beings first, the individual last. I think it&#039;s all a moot point. That includes speculation on rebirth. As always, it&#039;s what a person does that matters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Simon. It seems what your saying here is that a person needs to choose between self-interest and other-interest when making ethical decisions. It reminds me of the basis for Mahayana. The Buddha taught people how to awaken for their own sake, which in turn was beneficial to the many. The Mahayana saw the emphasis on individual awakening as selfish so directed their teaching toward the awakening of all beings first, the individual last. I think it&#8217;s all a moot point. That includes speculation on rebirth. As always, it&#8217;s what a person does that matters.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Investigating Rebirth by Simon</title>
		<link>http://paulgerhards.com/blog_thisisthatis/2012/01/06/investigating-rebirth/comment-page-1/#comment-1734</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Apr 2012 23:31:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paulgerhards.com/blog_thisisthatis/?p=2964#comment-1734</guid>
		<description>Hi Paul...It&#039;s a busy day here at MMC&gt;  :-) The analogy of DNA to reincarnation is a tempting one to chase but maybe later.  

A quick side-step: Lawrence Kohlberg postulates with some support stages of moral development folloed up by James Fowler as &quot;Stages of Faith&quot; (quotes for book title) and Robert Kegan as stages of &quot;ego development&quot; (scare quotes as there&#039;s controversy around what is being defined). An interesting change is between making ethical choices based on consequences to oneself and making ethical choices based on a shared humanity.

We can all point to folks we know who live by one or the other of these orientations. This seems to me to be one of the problems a worldview with ethical pretensions (buddhism, christianity, etc.) needs to address: who are we appealing to? Those motivated by self-interest, those motivated by shared humanity or both.

Classical Brahmanic karma seems to me to ground ethics through self interest (per star&#039;s entry).  I&#039;ll leave this here to simmer a bit.  What does it bring up for you folks?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Paul&#8230;It&#8217;s a busy day here at MMC&gt;  <img src='http://paulgerhards.com/blog_thisisthatis/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />  The analogy of DNA to reincarnation is a tempting one to chase but maybe later.  </p>
<p>A quick side-step: Lawrence Kohlberg postulates with some support stages of moral development folloed up by James Fowler as &#8220;Stages of Faith&#8221; (quotes for book title) and Robert Kegan as stages of &#8220;ego development&#8221; (scare quotes as there&#8217;s controversy around what is being defined). An interesting change is between making ethical choices based on consequences to oneself and making ethical choices based on a shared humanity.</p>
<p>We can all point to folks we know who live by one or the other of these orientations. This seems to me to be one of the problems a worldview with ethical pretensions (buddhism, christianity, etc.) needs to address: who are we appealing to? Those motivated by self-interest, those motivated by shared humanity or both.</p>
<p>Classical Brahmanic karma seems to me to ground ethics through self interest (per star&#8217;s entry).  I&#8217;ll leave this here to simmer a bit.  What does it bring up for you folks?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Investigating Rebirth by Simon</title>
		<link>http://paulgerhards.com/blog_thisisthatis/2012/01/06/investigating-rebirth/comment-page-1/#comment-1733</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Apr 2012 23:18:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paulgerhards.com/blog_thisisthatis/?p=2964#comment-1733</guid>
		<description>Hi star. I was emphasising that as we speculate on *my* rebirths, we look for and assume the continuation of *me* beyond this life. So I&#039;m entirely with your second paragraph.  Many thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi star. I was emphasising that as we speculate on *my* rebirths, we look for and assume the continuation of *me* beyond this life. So I&#8217;m entirely with your second paragraph.  Many thanks.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Investigating Rebirth by star</title>
		<link>http://paulgerhards.com/blog_thisisthatis/2012/01/06/investigating-rebirth/comment-page-1/#comment-1717</link>
		<dc:creator>star</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jan 2012 02:37:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paulgerhards.com/blog_thisisthatis/?p=2964#comment-1717</guid>
		<description>Simon, when you said, &quot;I’d add to what you said that another reason to speculate on *my* future rebirths, not to mention to be attached to them, is to put some insulation between me and mortality&quot; were you saying that there is a danger in speculating because of the attachment to life and detachment from mortality? Or were you suggesting it is a useful skill?

In MN 117 the Buddha describes views that are associated with karma and its results as &quot;tainted views&quot; and says that they result in acquisitions (I trust Bhikkhu Bodhi&#039;s reading of this as &quot;another round of the 5 aggregates in the future&quot;). It seems fairly obvious, after a little putting this path into practice, that concerning ourselves with what we will be in the future is a hindrance because it causes us to cling to and try to understand things about how things will be for (some aspect of) us in the future (whether that aspect is a soul, a self, or something unnameable is moot, it is still in some sense myself I am worrying about).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Simon, when you said, &#8220;I’d add to what you said that another reason to speculate on *my* future rebirths, not to mention to be attached to them, is to put some insulation between me and mortality&#8221; were you saying that there is a danger in speculating because of the attachment to life and detachment from mortality? Or were you suggesting it is a useful skill?</p>
<p>In MN 117 the Buddha describes views that are associated with karma and its results as &#8220;tainted views&#8221; and says that they result in acquisitions (I trust Bhikkhu Bodhi&#8217;s reading of this as &#8220;another round of the 5 aggregates in the future&#8221;). It seems fairly obvious, after a little putting this path into practice, that concerning ourselves with what we will be in the future is a hindrance because it causes us to cling to and try to understand things about how things will be for (some aspect of) us in the future (whether that aspect is a soul, a self, or something unnameable is moot, it is still in some sense myself I am worrying about).</p>
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		<title>Comment on Investigating Rebirth by Paul</title>
		<link>http://paulgerhards.com/blog_thisisthatis/2012/01/06/investigating-rebirth/comment-page-1/#comment-1716</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jan 2012 16:51:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paulgerhards.com/blog_thisisthatis/?p=2964#comment-1716</guid>
		<description>When I asked &quot;is it necessary to know?&quot; I see now the question could have two interpretations. Is it necessary to know &lt;em&gt;that&lt;/em&gt; there is rebirth as opposed to is it necessary to know &lt;em&gt;what&lt;/em&gt; that rebirth is? I go with the former question. In this &lt;a href=&quot;http://paulgerhards.com/blog_thisisthatis/2010/05/21/refelections-on-rebirth-reincarnation-and-belief/&quot; title=&quot;Reincarnation&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;post&lt;/a&gt; I liken rebirth to DNA. Do you believe in DNA? Of course it&#039;s a rhetorical question. DNA and its movement through lifetimes happens whether one believes in it or not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I asked &#8220;is it necessary to know?&#8221; I see now the question could have two interpretations. Is it necessary to know <em>that</em> there is rebirth as opposed to is it necessary to know <em>what</em> that rebirth is? I go with the former question. In this <a href="http://paulgerhards.com/blog_thisisthatis/2010/05/21/refelections-on-rebirth-reincarnation-and-belief/" title="Reincarnation" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">post</a> I liken rebirth to DNA. Do you believe in DNA? Of course it&#8217;s a rhetorical question. DNA and its movement through lifetimes happens whether one believes in it or not.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Investigating Rebirth by Simon</title>
		<link>http://paulgerhards.com/blog_thisisthatis/2012/01/06/investigating-rebirth/comment-page-1/#comment-1715</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jan 2012 03:15:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paulgerhards.com/blog_thisisthatis/?p=2964#comment-1715</guid>
		<description>Hi Paul. Thanks for the cogent response. I&#039;d add to what you said that another reason to speculate on *my* future rebirths, not to mention to be attached to them, is to put some insulation between me and mortality.

  You asked &quot;is it necessary to know?&quot; Exactly: what decisions will we make differently? How will we treat others differently if or if not there are future lifetimes? If we will treat people differently, where is right action, either way?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Paul. Thanks for the cogent response. I&#8217;d add to what you said that another reason to speculate on *my* future rebirths, not to mention to be attached to them, is to put some insulation between me and mortality.</p>
<p>  You asked &#8220;is it necessary to know?&#8221; Exactly: what decisions will we make differently? How will we treat others differently if or if not there are future lifetimes? If we will treat people differently, where is right action, either way?</p>
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